HairyEars ([info]hairyears) wrote,
@ 2007-12-01 02:43:00
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Entry tags:lj drama, politics, ranting

A few notes on the latest LJ Drama: 'Flag Day'...

*Sigh*

Why do I even need to explain this? Content-flagging protects the hosting company: if children see 'adult' material, someone will sue and try to shut down the service.

In practice, it isn't any random 'someone' that sues: if and when well-funded right-wing religious groups decide they don't like the godless hordes of sodom on a particular web service, they will work very hard indeed to close the whole thing down. If they're serious players, the lawsuit will run alongside a smear campaign in the media - cute images of a shocked family in the Midwest, stumbling on you or someone else's fanfic posts and conflating it with stomach-churning images of real child abuse - which will lead to a total financial and infrastructural boycott of the target company and police raids on the server room. Even the threat of a lawsuit will probably succeed - it's a common blackmail tactic against web-based companies approaching IPO - unless the target can produce a substantial body of evidence showing that they are taking care to protect children from pornography, howsoever defined.

The web hosts live in the real world, not the rhetorical utopia of the First Amendment, and they can be bankrupted, or prosecuted, or financially weakened by repeated lawsuits and a negative PR campaign directed at their advertisers and investors, to the point that they are forced to sell up to Murdoch. Think that one over, then consider this: other 'free' journal hosts who are taking 'refugees' from previous attempts to appease attacks on LiveJournal are actually far less free, because the smaller providers are living on a financial knife-edge and they have no leverage whatsoever with their physical hosts - let alone the content-blocking companies and ISP's. If they don't just fade away through being too small to work as social networks, they have no legal resources and no political backing; and one fine day some television ayatollah and his cross-eyed congregation of illiterate bigots will praise the Lord and pay the lawyers to squash the little player like a bug.

So, however prissy or downright craven SixApart appear to be, the only protection for what little free speech we actually have comes from applying all these little legal fig-leaves to the things we publish, and hoping it's enough to make malicious litigation unattractive. That, and the knowledge that Six-Apart are fairly wealthy, they have a PR team of their own, and they won't go under in the face of repeated lawsuits.

Yes, SixApart could be a lot less clumsy about it. But what's the alternative? As in, what are you going to do that doesn't involve putting other people - their blogs, their jobs, and their share capital - into the line of fire?

Demanding 'free speech' by publishing 'adult' content on a public blog - even pictures of breastfeeding mothers - isn't 'free' at all: it carries measurable financial costs for our hosts and jeopardises the freedom to say anything and everything - from 'Hello World' and pictures of your dog to 'serious' blogging about your lifestyle and your beliefs, real-world politics and why corporation X make products no-one ought to buy.

So if in doubt, flag it. Actually, I think you would be happy to flag anything you wrote if you felt that it was unsuitable for children; the problem is that our definitions differ - you're making an honest judgement about what might be offensive, or genuinely unsuitable; but the dishonest truth is that anything we post faces the 'judgement' of deeply unpleasant individuals who are eager to take offence in order to suppress anything contrary to their scripture. In short, any material with the slightest hint that we're not all happily married heterosexual Protestants consuming our way to Heaven.

The censors have largely succeeded in their aims, more than anyone would've believed when all those fine words about free speech and the rights of man were formulated in the Age of Enlightenment; and they continue to make progress with their threats and their lawsuits today. If anyone wants to campaign for free speech online, fix that and the pressure on SixApart will go away. Meanwhile, think harder about the gestures you're planning to make, and ask yourself who's going to end up paying for them.

Long term, I think the answer is to move off a server-based system and adapt the LJ protocols to a peer-to-peer model. That way, there's no big target to sue... But there will be lots of little people: powerless little people and we have already seen what copyright owners can do. Wait 'til you see botnets on a Mission from God and working heuristics for godless, gay or liberal content.


Yes, it's dystopian: wake up and smell the coffee. SixApart have reasons to be frightened and defensive and I do not believe that their high-risk practice of providing anyone a space to say anything they please will be legally or financially tenable by the end of the decade. Providing a toolkit for self-censorship is their only way of buying time against legal assault and in the end it isn't going to be enough.


Credit where it's due: this grew out of a comment on [info]valkyriekaren's journal.



(73 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]d_floorlandmine
2007-12-01 02:53 am UTC (link)
Well written.

(Reply to this)


[info]sunspiral
2007-12-01 04:58 am UTC (link)
This is the most well-reasoned argument in favor of the content-flagging that I've seen yet. I don't agree with it but I deeply respect how well you've stated things. Part of the problem is how clumsily Six Degrees has responded to previous problems, real or imaginary. They've really damaged any trust with those, and the latest "feature" practically begs for abuse by trolls. The people I know who post adult content have locked posts and/or put it behind NSFW warning links, which are as solid a barrier as the Enter/Leave buttons that the average porn site provides. This latest move feels like appeasement rather than due diligence and I fear that will merely whet the appetite of the fundamentalists and professionally offended.

(Reply to this)


[info]juggzy
2007-12-01 06:37 am UTC (link)
Providing a toolkit for self-censorship is their only way of buying time against legal assault

This, I agree with. If you study my journal carefully (where I have already flagged it as having explicit adult content) you will see that I object to the flagging, which is not self censorship, but inviting people to censor other people.

The flagging is wrong. That is encouraging the people that you are claiming SixApart is trying to protect itself from.

Edited at 2007-12-01 06:39 am UTC

(Reply to this)


[info]oldbloke
2007-12-01 06:45 am UTC (link)
If they'd published a procedure for challenging somebody else's flag of my posts, I'd have no problem with it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]juggzy
2007-12-01 10:27 am UTC (link)
Yes! Exactly! And the flagging is anonymous and unnotified (from my experiments last night) and it's all just the wrong, very wrong "inform on your neighbour" culture that makes me feel sick.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]knirirr, 2007-12-01 11:34 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]d_floorlandmine, 2007-12-02 02:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hairyears, 2007-12-03 01:27 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hairyears, 2007-12-03 01:28 am UTC (Expand)
from metafandom
[info]morganmuffle
2007-12-04 10:53 am UTC (link)
Whilst you can't challenge any one spcific flag you CAN challenge it if, after enough flags have been raised for Abuse to look and decide to mark your entry "explicit adult content". You just need to open an Abuse report and a different person will be assigned to look into it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]oedipamaas49
2007-12-01 08:45 am UTC (link)
*nods*

Yes, I agree with all of this. Also, 'botnets on a Mission from God' is a fantastic concept.

(Reply to this)


[info]juggzy
2007-12-01 10:28 am UTC (link)
I've just flagged this post as having offensive content. How about that?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]beingjdc
2007-12-01 10:32 am UTC (link)
I would imagine that since the activity consumes LJ review time, action will eventually be taken against people who repeatedly flag posts which are clearly non-offensive.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]juggzy, 2007-12-01 10:34 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]beingjdc, 2007-12-01 10:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]juggzy, 2007-12-01 10:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]beingjdc, 2007-12-01 10:58 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]juggzy, 2007-12-01 11:11 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]beingjdc, 2007-12-01 11:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]juggzy, 2007-12-01 12:43 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hoiho, 2007-12-01 01:30 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]beingjdc, 2007-12-01 02:18 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hoiho, 2007-12-01 03:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]pw201, 2007-12-02 05:54 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]senji, 2007-12-04 11:35 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]beingjdc, 2007-12-04 01:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hairyears, 2007-12-04 06:35 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]alixtiireader3, 2007-12-04 09:09 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]exmoor_cat
2007-12-01 10:35 am UTC (link)
They could also buy time by moving the servers physically to a more receptive country - e.g. Holland. It adds another layer of legal bureacracy to pursue SixApart across jurisdictions.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]senji
2007-12-04 11:42 am UTC (link)
Or, say, Russia...

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]knirirr
2007-12-01 11:45 am UTC (link)
There are some thoughts that occur to me that you are not likely to be particularly interested in here, but there is one that you might prefer:

if and when well-funded right-wing religious groups decide they don't like the godless hordes of sodom on a particular web service, they will work very hard indeed to close the whole thing down.

What would be useful here would be a well-funded non-right wing (in the sense that you meant it) non-religious group that decides they don't like the fanatical hordes of mindless censorship and oppression, and stands up to them. To some extent this could be with cash, but what is also necessary is to campaign to assert one's right to post what one wants. It could be said that the current tactic is to offer some appeasement, then lie low and hope the enemy goes away. Not only is this not likely to work, as you say, it concedes the moral high ground to them as the 'sodomites' could then be said to appear to be ashamed of what they do by virtue of their hiding.

Resistance of this nature was effective for Pro-Test. Though it could never eliminate their enemies it at least affected public opinion to the extent where SPEAK's primary aim has failed.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]feanelwa
2007-12-01 12:09 pm UTC (link)
Imagining this group to be made almost entirely of people who are stony broke, what should it actually do? To what will companies like Six Apart and their Abuse [Promotion] Team actually listen? Everything anybody has tried has failed so far.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]knirirr, 2007-12-01 12:59 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hairyears, 2007-12-01 03:31 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]d_floorlandmine, 2007-12-02 02:40 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]purpletigron
2007-12-01 01:14 pm UTC (link)
Two quick comments, as I'm very short of time ...

Breastfeeding isn't adult content ... it's U, suitable for all ages.

Without proper regulation including appeals, third-party flagging is too easily misused.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]senji
2007-12-04 11:42 am UTC (link)
The Right-wing-fundie-Christian crowd would disagree with you, and they're the 500lb gorilla in all of this :(.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]j4
2007-12-01 01:55 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for writing the only sane thing about "flag-gate" that I've read so far.

Why do I even need to explain this?

Because too many people on LJ are (or act like) whiny teenagers who think they have a god-given right to be handed the resources and tools they need on a plate (free gratis and with no limitations or restrictions) with which to publish any old shit that they want, in the name of "freedom of speech" -- a concept which has become so degraded by the hysterical squealing of entitlement whores that I am actually starting to feel uncomfortable about using the phrase, let alone claiming to defend it.

(Reply to this)


[info]pplfichi
2007-12-01 02:14 pm UTC (link)
The problems I have a mainly with that lack of transparency and that the abuse team will arbitrate on this (did I mention lack of transparency?), and they have a terrific reputation on calling the decision.

There other problem is that there is no appeals process, apparently no notification that you've been flagged and it's all done in clandestine lj-abuse fashion. Now LJ/6A is no democratic entity and can run their site as they please. But for the reasons you mentioned (among other more practical reasons) there aren't that many other places for people to go to, and a more open process may even enhance a lot. As an example, Wikipedia have some sort of balance for this...

I'm not going to touch the differing standards issue with a 10ft barge pole because there is no solution to that one that I know of that won't piss off someone, and that someone may have large pockets.

Lastly I'm rather miffed they didn't make clear that flocked posts aren't subject to the flagging, it's public posts only. But, following the logic in your post that could actually be a PR win, at least as far as people with a Mission to Censor are concerned.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]nja
2007-12-01 02:30 pm UTC (link)
Lastly I'm rather miffed they didn't make clear that flocked posts aren't subject to the flagging, it's public posts only.

They didn't make much clear - this is the only real problem I have with the flagging issue, and I really thought that after Furrygate or Slashgate or whatever the last "scandal" was, they'd have learned something about how to effectively communicate with users. (I also have some concerns about what policies the abuse team will use to decide what is inappropriate and how/whether these policies are communicated to users, but that's not exactly the same issue). As far as I can tell (and this has had to be gleaned from various places, because it wasn't all in the announcement):

1. It only applies to public posts.
2. Individuals can only flag five posts a day.
3. There needs to be a certain number of flags before the abuse team will investigate.
4. People who flag posts which are clearly not inappropriate will have the ability removed.
5. Users under the given ages won't be able to view the posts, but this "censorship" can be evaded by logging out and clicking on a "yes I want to see adult content" link.


(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]senji, 2007-12-04 11:44 am UTC (Expand)

[info]actionreplay
2007-12-01 09:25 pm UTC (link)
You and I seem to share a rather glum view of things, but you express it much better than I can...

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]hairyears
2007-12-02 01:40 pm UTC (link)

I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. As for effective self-expression: read well and you will write well, with regular practice.


What you didn't see was a series of edits and rewrites to tie the disparate ideas and soundbites into a coherent and slightly-less-repetitive essay. Then several edits to winnow out nonsensical sentences and embarrassing misspellings. 'Read Well' applies to both input and output!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]dabroots
2007-12-02 06:01 pm UTC (link)
Your argument might as well be applied to book publishers, bookstores, and online booksellers. Should they censor contents of their books because a minor might pick one up, download it, or order it, all out of fear they might be picketed, boycotted, and possibly shut down by Southern Baptists?

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)


[info]mcfnord
2007-12-02 11:54 pm UTC (link)
The FCC regulates public broadcasts because they are beamed into all homes. The internet is not so different. Whereas a book needs to be purchased at a store, or even online, and presumes delivery of money. This post wildly bloviates through economics and technical factors the author clearly does not understand, but the central thesis is basically correct.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]dabroots, 2007-12-03 12:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mcfnord, 2007-12-03 01:52 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]alixtiireader3, 2007-12-03 01:55 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mcfnord, 2007-12-03 02:08 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]senji, 2007-12-04 11:46 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mcfnord, 2007-12-04 04:04 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dabroots, 2007-12-03 01:56 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mcfnord, 2007-12-03 01:59 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dabroots, 2007-12-03 02:02 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mcfnord, 2007-12-03 02:17 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dabroots, 2007-12-03 02:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mcfnord, 2007-12-03 02:38 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]alixtiireader3, 2007-12-03 12:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mcfnord, 2007-12-03 01:54 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]alixtiireader3, 2007-12-03 01:58 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]carmarthen, 2007-12-05 02:47 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mcfnord, 2007-12-05 03:33 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]hairyears, 2007-12-03 02:04 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]elfwreck, 2007-12-04 07:12 am UTC (Expand)

[info]tx_cronopio
2007-12-02 06:37 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for a breath of sanity.

(Reply to this)


[info]littlelamb
2007-12-02 06:54 pm UTC (link)
this reminds me of the case that recently happened where a blog is in the preliminary stages of being sued for defamation basically as a tool to uncover the name of the whistleblowers who commented to the blog.

http://www.totallawyers.com/legal-articles-blogger-rights.asp

this case will perhaps ultimately show what rights people have commenting and posting on blogs under the first amendment.

as of right now, we just don't know.

(Reply to this)


[info]pw201
2007-12-02 09:20 pm UTC (link)
if and when well-funded right-wing religious groups decide they don't like the godless hordes of sodom on a particular web service, they will work very hard indeed to close the whole thing down

Has this already happened somewhere else? It sounds like you're describing an existing case, but I can't think of one offhand.

The Strikethrough thing wasn't legal pressure, but the much less expensive and more effective method of going to 6A's advertisers, as far as I can tell.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]mcfnord
2007-12-02 11:55 pm UTC (link)
happens all the time but doesn't mean it amounts to real risk

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]blackjackrocket
2007-12-04 07:03 am UTC (link)
if children see 'adult' material, someone will sue and try to shut down the service.

I work on a Pokémon board, and since most of our users are teens or above, there's often "adult" material posted. No one gives a damn if the younger users see it or not, so clearly we're not worried about any lawsuits.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dglenn
2008-01-02 09:46 am UTC (link)
I can't help but wonder: if the armies of the Levitican right sue as a means of imposing their 'godly' censorship, hoping to make defense of free speech unprofitable, aren't they opening themselves up to countersuits for barratry?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]hairyears, 2008-01-02 12:46 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]elfwreck
2007-12-04 07:07 am UTC (link)
SixApart's willingness to interfere with MY children's activities to match some other person's idea of what THEIR children should see, is incredibly distasteful to me. I do not trust their judgment about what's "appropriate for minors." (I've met some of 'em. They're nice folks. I still don't want them deciding what's okay for my kids to watch.)

However, that's not the real issue.

The real issue is, as it has been for months, that they haven't given us the standards they'll be using to limit or restrict content.

Again, we're in the position of being told "some of your stuff is Not Permitted in its current condition. Figure out what stuff that is, and change it, Or Else."

The "or else" is a bit milder this time... but it's the same basic message: read our minds. Figure out how we think mainstream John Q Public thinks, and cater to his prejudices, or be punished. No, we're not going to tell you what content is objectionable... if you can't figure it out for yourself, there's obviously something wrong with you.

Voluntary, opt-in flagging is a great idea. Reporting other people for "stuff that I think someone else's kids shouldn't have access to" is ridiculous.

(Reply to this)

'Flag Day'
[info]bzero
2007-12-05 08:45 pm UTC (link)
Very interesting perspective.

(Reply to this)


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